Related: Poli, 3D modelers Holy Poly - an invisible GOD ====patware: I've been reading a book about evolution and our relationship to apes. I'm just curious if your religion allows you to think in this way, or are you required to disallow such ideas without consideration? The idea that we share a common ancestor is unacceptable to some imaginary beings. What ideas do you have about our sharing so much DNA with apes? Can you think about it without inhibitions? Do you think a religion (certainly not yours, but any other) might imposes unneccessary restrictions on thought - thereby slowing progress or hiding truth? ====coworker: Your question seems to be more criticism than inquisitive. After all, you yourself have many years experience with Mormon theology, which you should understand invites any knowledge of the truth. ====patware: It's difficult not to sound critical when i'm making a realistic assessment of the situation. Mormonism does _not_ invite any knowledge of the truth. It invites only "faith promoting" stories. Mormons are advised to stay away "from the very appearance of evil" which could be described as anything that contradicts the teachings of the church. For instance lds-mormon.com/josephsmithmind.shtml may help understand why and how JS decided to start yet another religion, but you are commanded to not know. They are cautioned "If you are confused or feel uncomfortable with the subject it is 'the spirit' telling you this is wrong". This is great for keeping you from exploring anything that might "hurt your testimony" - consequently protecting the system. Mormons are not taught (and wouldn't consider any source valid) about all JS's prophecies that didn't come true. www.exmormon.org/prophet.htm ====coworker: Mormonism does not seek to understand "how" humans were created, only that we were created in the image of God. As to your statement that God is imaginary, he is not so imaginary to Joseph Smith, who saw him, and conversed with him. As to the validity of Joseph Smith, Gordon B. Hinkley told me that his story is true. ====patware: Ha! Very good. you know it's true because you've been told so. That is very obedient of you. ====coworker: There are many Mormons who believe that the idea of evolution is entirely wrong, and that the Bible tells us so. However, there are also many Mormons that believe that evolution is true, to an extent. There should be no Mormons who believe that we are the hapless product of entirely random mutations in our genetic code, however. Mormonism aside, the idea sounds very farfetched to me anyways. So far as I know, there is no official doctrine relating to the idea of evolution, other than that we were created in the image of God, which, I imagine you already know what that means. We are very similar to animals, in many ways. Anybody can see that just by looking at an animal. However, we are also very different in many ways. Who cares what an imaginary being thinks. If we do care, maybe we can just imagine him/her/it a little bit differently. ====patware: I'm finally getting through to you. What ideas do you have about our sharing so much DNA with apes? ====coworker: None. I stay away from Biological texts when I can. Too boring. ====patware: Do you think it should be disregarded? Is it of no value? Can you think about it without inhibitions? ====coworker: Does inhibitions mean predjudices? I think that we all have predjudices. I also don't think that sound scientific research is the only manner to learn truth. ====patware: Do you think a religion (certainly not yours [blasphemous], but any other) might imposes unneccessary restrictions on thought - thereby slowing progress or hiding truth? ====coworker: Yes, it happens all the time, as you well know. How about the inquisitions of Spain? However, in the end, bad ideas caused by religion are overcome, as are any bad ideas. Overcome as truth is substantiated, that is. (Who believes that the Sun revolves around the Earth anymore?) ====patware: Do you think all misconceptions perpetuated by religion have been overcome? If you were to ever discover the concept of god is invalid: Would you want others to know? Would it be better to pretend god is real? What are the pros/cons of persons believing in god if the concept is not valid? Are you saying "if there is no god, life has no value"? But what if there _really_ isn't a god. Would you rather die than continue living? ====coworker: Yes, interesting question. I'd rather not die. I'd be too scared to die. Can you really imagine a world with no God? No intelligence that directed the work of creation? Humans are awfully complex to have just mutated out of nothingness randomly. Assuming evolution is a true and correct principle, how did evolution get set up in the first place? ====patware: I don't need to imagine. There is no god. Why don't you believe in an invisible parrot on my shoulder? I assume no invisible creatures unless i have reason to. Please give me a reason to not believe in Holy Poly. You can read about evolution on the internet or at your library, but it most likely will not interest you (you said you care little for biology, and there's still the issue of it being able to replace god). I'm sure evolutionary ideas are not flawless. The difference is that it is at least an attempt at an approach. Just saying "god did it" is very lazy indeed. Claiming complexity proves god exists is entertaining. At what level does this not apply? What if you found an exceptionally complex knot in a string. Would that prove god exists? Are complex computer programs written by god? What about the complex interactions between species in ecosystems? What if sensible explanations are given that don't include god? Should we disregard them? ====coworker: This applies at all levels. If I found an exceptionally complex knot in a string, I would assume that somebody tied that knot. I assume that any computer program is written by a programmer. Certainly we can find sensible interactions between species. Does the fact that we understand some of those mean that they happened by chance? Certainly not. Somebody must have "programmed, designed, created" (call it what you will.) The complexity is there. To even think that it might have just erupted out of nothingness, with no intelligent interaction, boggles my mind. ====patware: A boggled mind does not indicate a proof (or even need) for god. You are probably sick of this. but wait. What if i'm right? Wouldn't it be worth knowing? What if you are wasting time/energy/concern/[your life] in a faulty world view? It seems unlikely to you, but that is exactly the mindset the adherent of _any_ religion has. Those in the Heaven's Gate group _knew_ Doe was their sacred leader. People of the Jewish faith _know_ Jesus is not the savior. Scientologists _know_ L. Ron Hubbard explains the universe correctly. How do/did they know? ====coworker: I don't claim to know any more than anybody else, what the nature of God is. Perhaps God is an invisible parrot, as you continually hint. A very intelligent invisible parrot, I'll be quick to add. I have no personal experience that I can relate to. However, Joseph Smith claimed to have that knowledge, and Gordon B. Hinkley supports that. I take it on faith that Gordon B. Hinkley knows for himself. That seems to me to be the best source of information that I have on the matter. ====patware: Do you believe Gordon B. Hinkley because he is adamant? Is because there is a quiver in his voice? Other religious leaders are just as convincing (to their respective followers). How is this different? Many followers happily die for their beliefs. Beliefs you would say are incorrect. How is it they are being misled, and how is that different from your experience of faith? You believe others (everyone in any other religion) has been misled. What makes you think you are not being misled? Ensure your answer cannot be used by members of Heaven's Gate group. ====coworker: While other people can be quick to point out flaws in the Mormon theology, nobody offers the solution to how it all came about. I'll add here that if we did evolve from big bang gasses, that would still not explain to me how the gasses were set up in the first place. ====patware: I point out the flaws of all religions (they are all equal to me). Your reasoning about the origin of the universe is flawed. Using your technique i could claim: "The complexity of the universe proves an invisible parrot created it because you have no other explanation." ====coworker: Wow, no wonder I had 57 new emails this morning. :) I used to be atheist and believe in evolution but found it lacking some fundamental answers. The main one was this: What is the difference between something that's living and something that's dead? Living things move toward order, dead things move towards disorder. I accept the ideas of natural selection and some other things about evolution but I believe that all things were created spiritually before being created physically and therefore there was no reason for evolution to occur. I can see that perhaps God might make things look as though they evolved to give people the option to believe in that if they didn't want to believe in Him. He seems to be all about choice. Patrick, please stop calling God the "invisible being" just because you haven't seen Him, or I'll start calling your mind the "invisible mind" since I haven't seen it. I have seen the effects of your mind in your ability to think though and so I believe that you have a mind, in fact, I believe it so strongly that I might even say that "I know" you have a mind - even though I have never seen it. ====patware: I only refer to the concept of god as an "invisible being" when taking a belivers perspective. My perspective requires me to call god an "imaginary being". I will not stop using the term "imaginary being" until you can give me evidence that god is more real than an invisible parrot (notice i used invisible here since i know my parrot is real) "all hail Holy Poly!". I agree evolution and even the 'big bang' theory could fit into a religion. A devout worshiper might say: "God started the universe with a flick of her hand. The precision was perfect (she is perfect after all). After hundreds of billions of years galaxys had formed. Another some millions of years, complex molecules [ univrelations.cornell.edu/NewSciLife/ss-molecules_of_life.html ] turned into RNA [ gslc.genetics.utah.edu/units/rna/rnaact/ ] DNA, ribozymes [ web.mit.edu/newsoffice/tt/1995/sep13/40700.html ] and proteins [ www.spacedaily.com/news/life-01k.html ] which then formed single-celled organisms, and eventually even the eye [ www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/01/1/l_011_01.html ]." But successful religions would not use such an explanation because it then removes the need for that religion to exist. ====coworker: What you have explained in your reply is actually not how it works and perhaps that very misunderstanding is keeping you from trying to find out for yourself. Do you really want to know if God exists? If so, I can clarify your misunderstandings. If you don't want to know if He exists, there is a different set of steps that works too, but it's not quite as fun to go through those ones. Those are the ones I had to go through. Let me know and I'll be willing to help in any way I can. ====patware: Sure sure. Pray, fast, believe, invest, mantras, etc. The problem is that the same formula works for _any_ and _all_ religions. The Heaven's Gate group _knew_ they were on the right track. John Travolta and thousands of others _know_ Scientology is the answer. Those of the Jewish know they are. I no longer wonder if god exists. I assume something isn't real unless i have reason to the contrary. The only question i have is how so many billions of people have been misled in so many ways. Even you agree every non-mormon has been misled. They don't have the truth. They often believe doctrines that directly conflict with yours yet they claim those came from god. Religion is a hoax. I'm sorry you've been duped. I was also. It is very embarrassing and life changing to discover so. I'm sure you won't leave mormonism. It has a fabulous array of hooks to keep you in. Oh well. People often live ok lives under a religion. I'm happy to be free of that oppression. Now i do good things because i enjoy being good. I don't pretend there are satan and god figures influencing me. those are excuses. But the recipie for "discovering god" has one talking to an invisible man, trying to imagine the wonderful outcome when you 'see the light' all the while trying to believe it is true (faith). That is certain to work if you try hard enough - since that is what self-hypnosis is all about. I know Holy Poly is real. I found out by praying to him hourly while envisioning him on my shoulder. I so wanted it to be true. After months of this it was clear that he does after all exist. All hail Holy Poly!